Not Ideas About the Thing But the Thing Itself
At the earliest ending of winter,
In March, a scrawny cry from outside
Seemed like a sound in his mind.
He knew that he heard it,
A bird's cry, at daylight or before,
In the early March wind.
The sun was rising at six,
No longer a battered panache above snow...
It would have been outside.
It was not from the vast ventriloquism
Of sleep's faded papier-mache...
The sun was coming from the outside.
That scrawny cry--It was
A chorister whose c preceded the choir.
It was part of the colossal sun,
Surrounded by its choral rings,
Still far away. It was like
A new knowledge of reality.
In March, a scrawny cry from outside
Seemed like a sound in his mind.
He knew that he heard it,
A bird's cry, at daylight or before,
In the early March wind.
The sun was rising at six,
No longer a battered panache above snow...
It would have been outside.
It was not from the vast ventriloquism
Of sleep's faded papier-mache...
The sun was coming from the outside.
That scrawny cry--It was
A chorister whose c preceded the choir.
It was part of the colossal sun,
Surrounded by its choral rings,
Still far away. It was like
A new knowledge of reality.
Wallace Stevens
This poem gives me fits. I like it, and yet I don't quite know why. It sits with me after I read it. I've done some looking at an allusion in the poem - do you see it? Probably not. It is an allusion to the philosopher Kant and his theory of noumenon or "the thing-in-itself". Look it up - try to reason through some of his theory, whew.
At it's most basic level, noumenon, or thing-in-itself, is a world unknowable by humans because it is a world that exists not in sensory reality but independent of the senses. An unknowable we assume to know because we shape meaning by our senses.
Using this primitive definition, and all that you understand if you take to reading some of Kant, speak to the poem's elusive, unknowable but perceivable, message.
I feel like the message coming from this poem is something like the only truth in one’s reality comes from their own perception of that reality. This is tied into sayings like whatever one sees and believes becomes that person’s reality. This is seen in the poem as the “he” that is followed in the poem is waking up to be “outside” of his sleep and being in his own mind and is now “outside” in what he sees as reality to him. But, what he is seeing and believe could be reality to him, but not reality to someone else. Also, who’s to say that if he went back inside his mind instead of being “outside,” that he isn’t in a legitimate reality of his own.
ReplyDeleteAlex Dessin
For me, it seems as if there is a confusing, almost hazy period for the man in the poem. He is unsure if this sound was from the outside world or within his own mind. His sense of reality is warped. I think the overarching theme of reality plays into this idea of noumenon because we don't know if our reality is real or if there is some other reality that we are absolutely blind to. The transition between sleep reality and awake reality exemplifies this confusing sense of reality.
ReplyDeleteThis poem makes me visualize this scene of the season changing, but more importantly how it makes the reader feel not only about nature but his perception on how their life as well is changing. The season being a new chapter in their life. The emotions that they’re going through as a season in their life is ending but more importantly as a new one is occurring.
ReplyDeleteIshia Sillah
The poem is about the distinction between reality and our interpretation of that reality based on what we perceive with our senses. He is just waking up; the sun is rising, and he hears a cry from outside. He gradually becomes aware of the world around him, and try's to figure out if he's still in a dream or actually awake by listening to the sound of the bird’s cry, and watching the light of the sun. In a way, reality feels warped and misshapen around him; everything feels confusing. With his senses blurred, he’s not able to clearly distinguish reality from the elements of his imagination, so he can’t tell whether the bird’s cry and the sunlight are real or are simply a lingering part of his dream.
ReplyDeleteI would summarize the theory of the "thing in itself" as how understanding that how you perceive your surroundings is your own definition of reality. No one's definition of reality is the same just like your definition of the thing in itself is the same as mine. The poem involves this theory since the narrator is deciphering whether the sound he hears is from another being or just a message from his mind. The narrator has to decipher whether his surroundings are just messages from his mind or a form of a physical reality. He must construct his own reality and definition of “the thing in itself”.
ReplyDeleteThe way I see the message based off the words of the poem and that definition is that there are two kinds of reality. One kind is a reality that is full of blind truth. The set reality, a reality that doesn’t have any space for our own interpretation or bias, it’s just raw and real. And another reality that we imagine in our own minds. This reality is pretty much different to everyone. Everyone's different set of beliefs, ideas, wants, needs, likes, dislikes, all of these things hold hands to form the reality that we all individually envision. Like in the poem, for example, the guy assumed this scrawny cry to be a bird's cry. That was his version of reality trying to guess what this scrawny cry was. That was his set of beliefs, ideas, wants, needs, likes, dislikes, trying to make up what the scrawny cry was. This shows that we all have these little factors in ourselves that come together to form our own reality which is apart of how we interpret things, like a scrawny, bird-like cry we might hear in the early hours of a winter morning. Later, the poem emphasizes the idea of these two realities by revealing that the scrawny cry was actually a chorister which is the real reality, the reality without any of our interpretation or bias. I don’t know if that’s actually the real message of the poem, but that’s just how I understood it.
ReplyDeleteWell I don't know about the poem, but oddly, the mention of the world beyond the senses made me think of an H.P. Lovecraft story called "From Beyond," where a reclusive scientist creates a machine capable of activating atrophied, ancient sense organs that allow us to perceive and interact with another world of otherwise invisible and intangible creatures that overlay our reality. Some of the creatures are malevolent and kill the scientist and the narrator escapes by destroying the machine, but he's haunted by the new knowledge of "things that flop and float through us every moment of our lives." I don't know how relevant that is but I thought it related to unsensable worlds. Another questionably related thought is the mantis shrimp. Humans see all of our colors through three color cones, and many insects have four or five color cones, which helps them to get information from flowers in UV light. Five is about the maximum number of color cones with the notable outlier of the mantis shrimp's sixteen cones. This would expand its perception far into UV and infrared, allowing a range of millions of distinct colors, giving it incredible amounts of information about the world around it. Also, that summary of noumenon sounds like Allegory of the Cave to me.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, in regard to the poem, I see it as relating to a primal, inhuman awareness of reality beyond time or physical form, as an ode to the idea of experiencing the world around oneself as if one merged with it so much as to be able to feel the inevitability of the sunrise, in much the way that animals (the bird) can themselves perceive the way the essence of events precede the events themselves as they create prophetic ripples in reality. The rays of the sun pervade the fabric of space and time and the man senses it much like the bird even before the sun's disk crowns the hilltops.
-Logan Delavan-Hoover
The poem's message is that one's perception of an object can alter their reality of it. The cry he hears in the beginning lingers in his mind like it does throughout the poem as he tries to understand. The sound of the cry comes with familiarity which his mind tries processing why it is and from that thought he shifts back and forth from the scrawny cry to the sun. The man doesn't seem to fully distinct the objects from reality or from his own interpretation.
ReplyDelete- Shannon L. (Pd.2)
In the poem, someone seems to be experiencing things with what is thought to be the senses but in reality everything is happening inside the imagination. We identify the things we experience with our senses out of familiarity. We just assume we hear or see things in real life but sometimes it's all in out head.
ReplyDeleteThis poem appears to give an example of what is like to experience sensations from the outside world that we can't really explain. For example when I say that I am walking inside a castle, some people depending on who they are will image the sound of cobble stone hitting your shoes, whereas others may imagine the sound of a glass floor in a glass castle. These are things that we don't realize shape our conscious reality. In this poem, we can visualize the bird chirping from the outdoors, and we can see the sun rising early in the morning. The
ReplyDeletespeaker wanted readers to experience this but from an outside perspective looking in.
I believe this noumenon is something that is referenced countless of times throughout history in literature, art, and even religion. People tend to obsess over things they can't understand, it terrifies some and attracts others. It's why we have cosmic horror, Lovecraftian fiction and movies like Annihilation. It's also why people partake in things like sensory deprivation tanks and why there are entire forums dedicated to people's experiences sleep paralysis; there's a common theme of people having the most vivid experiences when they are most without their senses.
ReplyDeleteIn religion, there always seems to be a specific form of afterlife that we constantly strive to see. And we have all these rules we abide by to get there and all these ideas of what the afterlife looks like but it's still something we have yet to really comprehend. I think Kant's noumenon is an interpretation of how people constantly want to push at the borders of our understanding yet still being confined by the senses that we have.
From what I interpreted, it seems that the writer is expressing his anticipation for spring as it slowly transitions from winter. He hears a chorister and mistook it for an early bird, he imagines what is to be expected, what should be outside. However, even if the prediction was misleading and inaccurate, it still served as a prophetic reminder of whats to arrive, in the form of a brilliantly shining sun.
ReplyDeleteI feel like this poem is definitely going over my head but I won't let that stop me from saying something! The main feeling I get from this poem is that of anticipation. I think that part of this feeling comes from the use of words like "before" "early" "preceded" etc. I also tried to read about noumenon and the-thing-in-itself. I understood the latter a little bit. I think it is about how things could be totally different when not being observed by the human eye. Not necessarily in a literal sense like how in toy story all the toys come to life when Andy goes away but more like, they have a different meaning? I'm not sure. My brother and I talked about it and he said the concept reminded him of Plato's Theory of Forms, which, as I understand it, basically says that one object can never be seen in the true, ultimate form in which it actually exists. We are all just observing different parts of things and are able to identify them because we have learned to give meaning to otherwise meaningless objects in space.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how to relate this back to the poem at this point.
I feel like this poem works to convey the message of reality being defined by what we hold to be true. It parallels, in a way, the idea of noumenon because the speaker of the poem seems to be uncertain about whether or not his hearing of this sound is from the outside or a figment of his imagination, but yet he doesn't seem to label the experience, as a whole, as fake. There's this underlying tone of, "I know I heard this. It's real. I just need to know if it came from outside or within."
ReplyDeleteThe thing that strikes me about this poem is the way the image of the sun slowly, literally appears in the reader’s mind.Stevens isn’t telling you that the speaker’s perception has been altered by this weird half-dreamt bird’s cry turns revelation, he is literately showing you. As the title suggests, there is a conception of nature and imagination with art and reality. It blends these ideas that the bird’s cry and knowledge and the sun rising and creativity and the sound in his mind. Which is a an imagination and all of that wonderful inclusiveness.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, I also think the poem is about the distinction between reality, and our interpretation and understanding of that reality. The cry for instance, takes many forms in this poem. it is representative of the epiphany that occurs in all new ideas, thoughts or knowledge. A new understanding of a concept whether in the self or in a creation of a new work. The author himself isn’t initially able to clearly distinguish reality from the elements of his imagination, so he can’t tell whether the bird’s cry and the sunlight are real or are simply a lingering part of the dream he had.
ReplyDeleteI thought maybe this this poem is like almost a hazy thought about that confusing stage between sleep and awareness. In that stage, hallucinations are common and the senses can't be trusted. In the poem he was saying how he couldn't tell at first if the bird call was in his mind, or whether the sun was really rising outside. He thought he may have imagined the bird, or the sun could be a paper-mache version of reality. Sort of as with the-thing-in-itself, I think he can't be sure of what reality is truely.
ReplyDeleteThis sort of reminds me of the description of what understand a higher dimension looks like. We have lived our whole lives in three dimensions, so we are unable to comprehend a fourth. Yet imagine living in two dimensions. Then a third dimension would be completely incomprehensible. A sphere might look like an increasing, then decreasing circle as it passes through our dimension. We could not formulate an image of what that sphere looks like. In the same way, we can't form a true image of 4 dimensions. That higher reality that we can't perceive is sort of what this poem reminded me of.
I've begun to ramble, but that is the sort of idea or feeling this poem gives me.
Katie Brockmeyer
The poem’s message relates to the difference between reality and our perception of reality based on our senses. In the poem, the man cannot tell the difference between reality and his senses. He cannot tell if the sound was real or not. It really relates to humans only believing in things that are in front of them. If I see it, hear it, touch it, taste it, or smell it, then it’s there otherwise, it’s not. However, the idea of noumenon is based on something that is higher than the senses of humans. The man just doesn’t know the difference between his perception and reality.
ReplyDeleteVickie Tu
Period 2
I'll be completely honest-- I understand this poem about as much as I understand String Theory i.e. only in theory. But as I sat here in my newfangled crocs contemplating this poem, I had an epiphany: what if the point of the poem was to not ever really understand the poem? Most poetry has a message, a statement of some kind that attempts to strike at some nerve be it personal, social, political, etc. This poem, however, seems to be nothing more than a stew of sensory-provocative statements; it's trying to poke that same nerve like other poems but without a clear intention in mind. Now I'm not saying that the message is whatever you perceive. Contrarily, I feel like the message is supposed to be whatever we don't see. This poem sticks with you and haunts your mind because we don't fully understand it-- that's its true beauty. Therefore I conclude we don't know this poem's message nor will we ever and, as convoluted as it may sound, that in turn is the poem's message.
ReplyDeleteSo when I did some research on the noumenon, the best example that helped me understand it was space. Not outer space, but the idea of understanding that something is close to you or far away from you. With most aspects of knowledge, you can either learn with rationalization or experience. However with space, it is almost like an innate understanding. As a baby, you don’t have to bump into something to know that it’s close to you, and you don’t have to rationalize it either. There are a few lines in the poem that express the idea of this knowing but not really having to...experience I guess? When the author says “ Seemed like a sound in his mind”, it’s almost like the narrator knows that he heard the sound but is unsure if the sound was real. I thought of this more like a dream when you don’t know if whatever you dreamed about genuinely happened or just a part of your head. The noumenon seems like that very thin line between physical existence and nonreality.
ReplyDeleteFrom my perception, the man in the poem, as aforementioned, is in this hazy, sleepy state where he's unsure of the world outside. He remembers hearing the 'bird's cry,' and seeing sunlight, but can't quite clearly distinguish his imagination from reality. Apart from this, the primitive definition of noumenon reminds of when people say, "I swear we're in a simulation!" We have a sense of what the world around us is like, but some unexplainable instances and phenomenons that seem to transcend our (five) senses make us question our perception of what's real. I hope this makes sense, or you have an idea of what I'm trying to say. This whole concept of the thing-in-itself is exciting, and the idea that the way we sense the world around us could be a warped version of reality because it's so subjective and individual is cool.
ReplyDeleteI interpreted the poem in that everyone’s perception of reality is different, therefore our interpretation of reality can be complex. The distinction between actual reality and our interpretation of it is that we only find truth within our own interpretations so can we truly understand reality beyond our senses? (I probably don’t make sense) but I feel like all of our senses are so unique to us that the way we view outside like how the man in the poem viewed outside could differ depending on the human I think that’s part of why the man in the poem couldn’t figure out if what he sensed was imaginary. The poem almost contradicts the idea of noumenon because of the speakers inability of knowing whether they hear the crying in their reality or if it’s in their imagination and because of the fact that they even hear the crying at all and are able to place it in a scene it contradicts the idea of the crying possible being independent of the senses.
ReplyDeleteThe poem begins by placing uncertainty on the character and what he believes to be listening to. Is it real? or is it just my imagination? These are questions we even ask ourselves probably on the daily. In the poem the character becomes aware of the world around him and steps out of his own mind, really seing what was in front of his eyes.
ReplyDeleteI think this poem is mostly about reality and imagination. Also how the seasons relate to it because they mention how in seasons some things are supposed to happen yet sometimes they don’t but that’s just all part of our beliefs even though we can’t exactly guarantee what can happen each season.
ReplyDeleteTo me, the poem well represents Kant’s theory of noumenon. There is a distinction between a true reality and a perceived reality in the poem. Stevens writes about a sound, which at the start, is said to be from a bird, and at the end, is said to be from a chorister. The boy in the poem hears the cry and has his own vision of what it could originate from. Based on the allusion we know is present, we can assume that this is because of his experience with listening to both birds and chorister, respectively. It’s interesting how there was able to be a similarity in the noises, at least to this one person. It speaks well to the sensory reality Kant talks about. We all have senses we use during our individual experiences that allow us to shape our interpretation of certain things. This can allow us to draw conclusions, like where the sound came from.
ReplyDeleteThe poem talks about seasons changing and I feel as though it has a subtle reference to our change as humans. When the seasons change we change. When something unexpected happens we change. As well as the changes to our well being during changes physiologically. But lastly by not exactly knowing whats coming in our lives and that is something we can't control and is what I believe is the allusion of noumenon in the poem.
ReplyDeleteThis poem to me is the author speaking about his perception of reality, and how everyone’s interpretation of reality is very different. And our understanding of what’s around us and how we image it in our heads. Like my understanding of reality and how I see things wouldn’t be the same as someone else’s. Everyone’s perception of reality can’t be the same because everyone sees and understands reality differently and shapes it into something they understand.
ReplyDeleteJasmine Dauphine pd. 5
Amera Mohamed 5: I think the man in the poem is confused between what is actual reality and what he is hearing in his mind. His senses is what he uses to know that the birds there but his other senses are unaware what reality that these birds are in. The idea of noumenon being a thing knowable by senses opens up the true definition of the thing in itself which is that we all have different capabilities with our senses. This is the reason that it is possible we all have different realities we are able to live in once our senses were blurred like the man in the poem.
ReplyDeleteNoumenon to my understanding is how something is is a plane that we cannot comprehend due to it falling outside of the range of our seven senses. This reminds me of how some animals can see colors we can’t die to biological differences. I feel like the message is portraying someone experiencing something they can’t fully comprehend, and describing it in the only way they can, though one of the five senses. It’s his own personal interpretation of the event. This to me represents how everything we experience is just our own personal interpretation of events, and that we are actually very unclear on what the world is actually like. This new sound is changing the narrators understanding of their surroundings, like how when we learn something new our interpretation of things change. It’s like a form of enlightenment, and noumenon is the place people strive to reach to be enlightened.- Caitlin Henderson
ReplyDeleteTo me the poem means that the man is lost between whats real and what isn't. As well as time and how it seems to be lying to himself. How everything around him from nature to little object could be deceiving and mean something different to anyone. It almost seems as if he is delusional and dosent know the difference between what he can and cannot see.The poem almost try to prove to the reader how lost the man is by complication of setting.
ReplyDeleteThe poem to me is about how our senses define what is real and what is not. For example, a student in a classroom. The classroom can mean an actual classroom for someone and another could mean something more different. The poem is demonstrating what is real in the world around us and what is not based on our senses. The seasons are changing and the man is confused on how the setting is changing.
ReplyDeleteThe message of the poem is that we as humans tend to be unaware of things because of our perceptions. Also, the way we perceive things can change how things actually are. No two people think the same which makes it so that our beliefs are what define us.
ReplyDelete-Crystal Gomes
The poem only uses pronouns, It describes a situation that is very vague yet familiar to us. We know of March and the sun and the wind and a bird's cry. I think the vagueness helps to explain our existence and Noumea is that place beyond what we can understand.
ReplyDelete